Curse

AirOnG · May 31, 2005, 12:04 AM // 00:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khrysyl

Once those people have left the ladder who will accept a PvP only solution to the perceived problems with GW the ladder will not be dead as the poster stated, it will be inhabited by those for whom the game was intended, and dare I say, by those who like the game.

Do you perceive anything wrong with this situation? I think this would make the game a lot better and satisfy both camps optimally. I also believed he claimed the ladder would be dead if the game stayed as it currently did. It is debateable whether the lifespan of this game is longer or shorter with the large amount of grind.

Khrysyl, the only good argument against a dual system is segregation of the community. I think the good outweighs the bad and that it would be beneficial to everyone.

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Originally Posted by Khrysyl

I strongly encourage the folks who fall into that category to learn the things that matter to a PvE or Pve/PvP player so that they can engage in informed discussion and help to be part of the solution.

Let me see if I've gotten the attitudes correct. The things that seem to matter to a PvE player is the ability to earn things. If someone can bypass earning things in the manner that they do, it is somehow detrimental to their playstyle and makes their method of earning seem futile when someone can just "have everything" with a button. However, I do not understand the PvE player's contention when this button would only apply to people in their own realm who have unlocked. It would not affect them in any way. PvP players would not be able to experience the PvE content like they do.

The PvE/PvP player and the PvP player will never agree. The differences in mentality are too great. The PvE/PvP player believes that they should be able to have an unfair advantage over another player simply because they invested more time in timesinks (although they use the euphemism of "earning" and "rewards" instead of "unfair advantage"). PvP players believe that competition should be on a level playing field and that the reward is status in a ladder or tournament. An UAS would adversely affect PvE/PvP players because they have less players to impose their mentality and unfair advantages upon. However, they would still be able to play with like minded players in a dual UAS system.

Would you consider that a fair synopsis of the current situation from a PvP player's perspective?

Another Edit: I'd like to note that this game really was marketed for PvP players who didn't want to have to do timesinks to be able to compete with "hardcore" PvE/PvP characters who enjoyed unfair advantages in past MMORPGs. You can argue semantics all you want, but that is the reality of the marketing and what many PvPers bought into.

DarrenJasper · May 31, 2005, 12:45 AM // 00:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by AirOnG

Let me see if I've gotten the attitudes correct. The things that seem to matter to a PvE player is the ability to earn things. If someone can bypass earning things in the manner that they do, it is somehow detrimental to their playstyle and makes their method of earning seem futile when someone can just "have everything" with a button. However, I do not understand the PvE player's contention when this button would only apply to people in their own realm who have unlocked. It would not affect them in any way. PvP players would not be able to experience the PvE content like they do.

The PvE/PvP player and the PvP player will never agree. The differences in mentality are too great. The PvE/PvP player believes that they should be able to have an unfair advantage over another player simply because they invested more time in timesinks (although they use the euphemism of "earning" and "rewards" instead of "unfair advantage"). PvP players believe that competition should be on a level playing field and that the reward is status in a ladder or tournament. An UAS would adversely affect PvE/PvP players because they have less players to impose their mentality and unfair advantages upon. However, they would still be able to play with like minded players in a dual UAS system.

Would you consider that a fair synopsis of the current situation from a PvP player's perspective?

Another Edit: I'd like to note that this game really was marketed for PvP players who didn't want to have to do timesinks to be able to compete with "hardcore" PvE/PvP characters who enjoyed unfair advantages in past MMORPGs. You can argue semantics all you want, but that is the reality of the marketing and what many PvPers bought into.

I certainly would, well said.

It's fantastic, the way that PvEers refer to skill rewards of grinding as "earned", without ever realizing the gross oversight.

Let me go back to an analogy I made earlier and kind of liked: Laser tag is designed to be a test of personal skill - how accurately you can shoot your laser rifle and hit the people on the other team. That's what the contest is testing, personal marksmanship.

By making it so that you have to spend hours playing whack-a-mole in order to "earn" a gun that shoots straight ruins this concept completely. Winning is no longer based on who the best marksman is, it is now about who's got the straight-shooting gun, which means in essence it's about who has played more whack-a-mole.

So why even bother with laser tag, then? Why not just have a big-ass whack-a-mole contest, see who can whack the most goddamn moles? If you're going to play laser tag, have it be about playing laser tag, and leave the bloody whack-a-mole out of it.

The Virago · May 31, 2005, 12:58 AM // 00:58

I think some of you should count your lucky stars and be thankful that ArenaNet gave you:

- An auto-20 character
- Full selection of armor, your free choice on which you want to wear
- Full selection of weaponry, your free choice on which you wish to wield
- All ability points to spend as you wish at character inception

I think the whine about wanting UAS is purely childishness, the complete and total lack of insight as to just how much you have been given.

I also think most of you posting didn't bother to RTFM as it seems to me it has always been very, very clear that you would have to earn your skills and runes just like the rest of the world.

So feel free to continue foaming at the mouth about how rough you have it, or how 'unfair' it is, or whatever other version of 'Pity Poor Me, I Can't Be Uber without WORKING FOR IT' you like... for my part, I'm taking the hint (As I'm sure ArenaNet has long ago) that you just can't have a genial discussion and leaving you to wallow in your own tears.

p.s.: I was leading one of the best PvP guilds in Meridan 59 and later, UO when most of you were yet an itch in your daddy's pants. If you want to know why I left PvP for PvE, just read your own posts.

DarrenJasper · May 31, 2005, 01:13 AM // 01:13

Oh gosh. You guys are getting desperate.

RedFang: I've completely missed the point of this discussion, but I think you're all just mad... because you lost! Mnyeh.

Excellent, Kreskin. Wrong, but excellent.

Consider if you guys had to PvE using only pre-mades, that only the pre-made build skills were made available for PvE. Well hey, I could beat the official campaign only using a pre-made, why can't you? Why aren't they good enough for you? What? You mean part of the game is having access to all the skills in order to create your own unique builds and adapt dynamically to challenges you're presented with? Oh, I hadn't considered that!

The Virago: You should just be grateful we PvEers didn't move in sooner and turn GW into a hack-and-slashterpiece in its fetal stages! ANet got to throw you more bones than usual before we arrived, so you better just thank your lucky stars!

PS I know better than all of you because I've been playing video games since THE STONE AGE!

While your optimism is admirable (and oh so precious) I think if you paid for a hot dog from a street vendor and then discovered he'd only given you the bun, you would ask him to reach into his stand and get you a hot dog, since it's within his power to do and, quite frankly, it's what you paid for. Please let me know if I'm mistaken here, maybe you'd just go "well I should be grateful for what I've been given" and be on your merry way.

AirOnG · May 31, 2005, 01:21 AM // 01:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redfang

Why not use the time you spend posting to read, learn, experiment and develop winning tactics using the skills you do have? If you did, you might find yourself able to compete after all.
...
Even if you got what you are asking for, you are still going to kiss pavement. It's the difference between a player who learns how to win, and a player who crys because they "can't" win.

You are assuming we are unable to compete and are implying we are simply whining due to lack of ability. This is an assumption you cannot prove or disprove and is simply an ad hominem attack that adds absolutely nothing to the discussion. You also continuously ignore the main reason PvPers want this change: a level playing field based on skill. PvPers are not arguing for this to be some ubercharacter since an implementation of this system makes everyone competing just as potentially powerful. Honestly, how hard of a concept is that to understand?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redfang

The skills they make available to you in PvP have been used by winning teams in the past. If they were good enough for those teams, why aren't they good enough for you?

The PvP templates by themselves out of the box are a joke. Any good team with a customized build will completely destroy those templates.

Virago, that is a very fallacious argument. You claim since we are somehow "lucky" (extremely subjective viewpoint), we shouldn't complain, although there is a very significant grind in this game that the advertisement grossely misrepresented.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Virago

I also think most of you posting didn't bother to RTFM as it seems to me it has always been very, very clear that you would have to earn your skills and runes just like the rest of the world.

One usually only has access to the manual upon purchase of the game. Most people would not know a manual was available on the online website.

You also have like many other PvEers completely misrepresented the beliefs and attitudes of PvPers. How can you honestly carry on constructive debate without understanding the opposition? You claim that we want the UAS to be an "uber" character when that is so far from the truth. We want the UAS for a level playing field. Please think about that and understand it before commenting.

You are resorting to baseless ad hominem attacks of calling us childish and prop yourself up as better and older. Do not take this offensively, but this is ironically childish.

DarrenJasper, you're being kind of childish in your post ^^ A common thing many people seem to misunderstand in arguments is that you get nowhere by attacking the opposition. It's much better to come to an understanding.

Bamelin · May 31, 2005, 01:30 AM // 01:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khrysyl

First, if you will notice, the pure PvP player tends to be much more outspoken than the PvE player. They also tend to be more intimidating in arguments.

Your joking right? How many times has the age old PvE "Go play Counterstrike" argument been uttered? At least once in EVERY GODAMNED THREAD on the boards.

The pure PvE player is WAY more outspoken than PvP players if you ask me. Hell a PvP player can't even post up a thread to discuss PvP changes without PvE carebears showing up with their "logic" (trolling) of why PvP
ers are wrong wrong wrong wrong.

Zorlag · May 31, 2005, 01:31 AM // 01:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Virago

Aww, what's wrong, Darren, you don't like the taste of your sour grapes? Perhaps you might eventually understand they're of your own chosing.

Personally, I think you should take the advice my partner just gave as he was looking over my shoulder, "Poor kid... tell him if he can't stand to play, quit. Otherwise, tell him to suck it up because life's tough and it's no one's fault but his own if he didn't RTFM."

Heh. So true. I think I'll leave it at that. After all, anyone willing to directly misquote you to try and make their point obviously doesn't have a leg to stand on...

Funny you say "don't have leg to stand on" when I have not seen one good argument for making PvP portion of the game time and luck dependant. For PvP players there is no such thing as "earn" there are only tools and that everyone has the same tools to use from the get-go and it stays that way. Fun comes from winning and learning (teamplay, timing, map-tactics), not from lording time-earned gains over others.

And if someone is worried about lack of PvE rewards, Anet could add lots equipment that gives bonuses against monsters and look cool, but offer no bonus in PvP.

Loviatar · May 31, 2005, 01:35 AM // 01:35

level playing field? not everything??

i suggested keeping *ONLY* the superior runes and the elite skills out of the pvp making everything orders of magnatude easier to get what anybody thought was needed and had the idea shot down so fast your head would spin

losing the superior is only i point still leaving the 2+ from the major but somebodys build absolutely has to have the full 3+ or *IT JUST WONT WORK RIGHT*

it was stated by pvp people that if the other people didnt use them i wouldnt either but since they are i have to also

a pvp persons idea put out by a pve person (me) gets shot down like a lead balloon

AirOnG · May 31, 2005, 01:44 AM // 01:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loviatar

level playing field? not everything??

i suggested keeping *ONLY* the superior runes and the elite skills out of the pvp making everything orders of magnatude easier to get what anybody thought was needed and had the idea shot down so fast your head would spin

I've said I'd be happy and fine with that Loviatar. However, I know many people would not be content and believe that not having all the runes and elite skills reduces the depth of gameplay for them. Like I said, they would believe it is analagous to a realm where fully unlocked w/mo can only compete against fully unlocked w/mo. I suppose I should append another addition to the level playing field argument. Depth of gameplay is also a critical component to a good PvP experience ^^ I'd think the depth would be ok to an extent with what you've proposed, although many would believe you have put an unnecessary and arbitrary limitation.

DarrenJasper, do you see what you have done with your ad hominem attacks? You have simply made others fling ad hominem attacks in kind and the discussion has gone nowhere ^^

Although I've probably been guilty of undeserved ad hominem attacks and flaming in this thread, I try my best not to commit them. I think it's a very important lesson to learn that insulting gets you nowhere when attempting to convince people or make them understand you.

Xellos · May 31, 2005, 01:56 AM // 01:56

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An unfair advantage to a PvPer is an artificial game rule that makes one side have a superficial advantage over another side. In this case, the superficial advantage is one side having more health or runes or skills just by virtue of having done an unchallenging and unskilled timesink.

Then let every player in the UAS ladder have everything unlocked to the max instead of taking it away? Your starting to sound like someone who hasn't played the game enough.

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In order to really be "earned" to a PvPer, the reward should be something that actually requires skill like position in a ladder or tournament. To obtain runes and skills in this game, all that is required is purely time and very little skill.

Rewards in PVP should never enable you to become stronger directly or indirectly. That widens the gap between skilled players and casual players. The game still has to cater to everyone.

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're saying that all PvP players are by their very nature unobservant and possess poor standards? These assumptions are nothing but unfounded and insulting.

If I had the choice to have a UAS ladder, and I only played UAS ladder the whole time, would I be good at riverside runs on my first try? No.

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I enjoy the PvP system in the game, though I'm largely a "casual PvE player." MMORPGs are typically disappointing in the PvP realm what with a hefty reliance on attributes and randomly generated numbers to decide who lives and dies. Guild Wars so far has seemed to be one of the best at reaching a balanced PvP playing field, but a UAS option will do nothing but hurt that balance.

I can only stress this some more, play the game more before you discuss, chances are, your one of the hundreds who think you know something but just have a common misconception.

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What do you mean by "taken out of the matrix"?

The matrix was a illusionary world technically created by machines.

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This reply is going to get me flamed, but I'll go ahead with it. Why are PvPers so attracted to massively multiplayer online ROLEPLAYING games? Yes, there is by definition a grind built into this genre. It's the nature of the beast. Aside from an immersive plotline, RPGs (and MMORPGs) involve lots of character development (okay, so plot is sometimes thin in MMOs).

Apparently, you don't read the box. Do you also say it's ok for your coa coa puffs to have holes in then because they have them in cheerios?

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I've never been very satisfied with the PvP content of MMORPGs, though Guild Wars has risen above my expectations. These games rely heavily on statistics and random die rolls to determine the outcomes of battles. There's a lot of luck going along with the skill in PvP battles in this genre. Guild Wars has less randomness, but it's still a part of the system.

There's enough luck as it is even with a UAS ladder.

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If you want purely skill-based PvP, the FPS and RTS genres are much more skill-based. MMORPG PvP is more analogous to two players duking it out in a pencil-and-paper Dungeons and Dragons game. Yes, Guild Wars has reduced the randomness factor, but not elminated it.

Too bad the intention was to eliminate it to the point where skill determines the winner period. I mean, korean tournaments? Do you see world of warcraft doing that? I thought only competitive games qualified for tournaments.

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If you want skill-based PvP without putting any work whatsoever into it, this really isn't the right genre for you.

Sorry, but when you call guild wars into a old genre, you just proved that you have no idea what your talking about.

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Proves the point? So a single example demonstrates the presence of a much larger truth? I'm a game mechanics junkie, my friend. Understanding of the game mechanics has nothing to do with one's PvP or PvE standing. It's really a question of personality.

Prove it. Show me how the game mechanics applies to tombs. I'll give you 5 hours to figure out the current flavour of the month. Plenty of time for someone who claims to know the game mechanics, since Ensign probably does it in mere seconds. You have no idea what your talking about, because you use mumbo jumbo words to cop out just like other people.

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But NOT for a casual (or hardcore for that matter) PvE/PvP player (one who is interested in both) and since these are the players that are a majority in this game, and it seems obvious to me, the population that A.Net has made this game for, then UAS is an awful alternative.

This is the key factor. It is actually pretty accurate. While the figures are completely random, the boards of GW ranging from GWG to even something as leisurely as GameFAQs shows that most people do play PVE and PVP. Whether or not people would still play both given the choice to be seperated is the real question.

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Yes instead, we will have 1 dead ladder that sucks more then any other in the history of games, in fact it is downright boring to try to even play on it.

But the question is, given the gamble, will you PVPers be able to handle the imbalances that you will quickly find and be zealous about? I mean, with Ensign, Blackace, and a number of other people, I'm pretty sure it has a fair chance to become the next WC3. Both ways are dangerous, but that's how the game is currently sadly.

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Quite the contrary, if the PvPers will only accept a game their way rather than a compromise that benefits all players then once you have left the ladder will be inhabited by the players for which this game was intended.

People who lose to my henchmen team in PVP?

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why cant they play now and farm on the side and add to their builds rather than having to have everything before they can play?

Some do, some do. But flavour of the months change very quickly. More like flavour of the week almost. Even the air ele build is quickly being countered, as the team that made it famous is already changing their strategy right away. People evolve, and this forces others to react faster. Unable to react because of your limited options puts you at a severe disadvantage. Then look at GvG, where your stats are permanent. Then you'll realize why people want such flexibility.

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Air.. How would you feel if they implemented a PvP only server that had no elites, runes, or upgrades, but were completely open for all basic skills.. Instant level playing field. Would all of you be happy with that?

And why no elites, runes, or upgrades may I ask? To simply smite at the PVPers? Nice try, Your like The Virtago, absolutely clueless and defensive over your PVE game. It's not like runes, elites, or upgrades would be available to only a few. Rather, it is available to everyone. That is the suggestion. You don't have to unlock superior vigor, you'll start out with it.

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which would be temporary and decrease as the play/farm group found more stuff

Temporary can be a very long time. Guys like Ensign already gave up on farming and resort to PVE characters. How sad is that.

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omg, you can't be more right. out of sheer boredom, 8 of my guildmates stated a fake guild. in 6 hrs we got to ranked 29 from unranked. what's funny is that we spend more time "Awaiting a Worthy Opponent" then we do playing the game. the ladder is so broken, it's not even funny.

Ladder? What? I thought tombs was the only place to PVP.....

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Pop quiz. How many guilds in the top 40 aren't a duplicate, dummy, or practice guild?

None, they all belong to the Spooky.

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and xellos, yup there is a business and there's an ideal. i guess in the real world you choose what pays your bills. hmm, it seems to me that if you're going to make a hybrid fps and rpg, you have to make it so each half is able to stand on its own. while the rpg part is ok (not spectacular), the pvp is pretty awesome...if we can ever get to it...

I'm just stating the awareness for everyone, so that people realize that they cannot be too overzealous. We should give them time, but be aware that their suppose to be spending this time to fix something. The problem with most companies is, they aren't willing to ask for help from people like us. Course, that's a silly and bold idea, one wrong move and poof

but hey, I can dream about getting a easy paycheck can't I?

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These players will have no doubt have one class that they always play and have worked out how to play them to amazing skill levels.

The hell. Which one of you only plays one class? Sama? Pharalon? BLACKACE? One of you is gonna get FIRED :P

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I would also put money on it that these players aint the ones bitching on these boards, they are playing the game, because they have enough sence to realise it aint getting them any where bitchin, in fact they could probably find all the skills before an UAS was introduced, and what the heck, even if it does get introduced, bonus, they will have had the x amount of time perfecting their skills.

Really? That's weird, I didn't see any proof in this statement here that can prove that. Do you want all of us to show you our credentials or something? Don't make statements you can't back up. This is GWG, not GameFAQs or VNboards. Some of the best do live here.

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Top guilds among many others have complained about the grind in retail.

Cept the korean guilds and european guilds, only because they haven't registered at GWG :P

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Once those people have left the ladder who will accept a PvP only solution to the perceived problems with GW the ladder will not be dead as the poster stated, it will be inhabited by those for whom the game was intended, and dare I say, by those who like the game.

Oh, so now your saying people that care for the game's fun is now the people who don't like this game. Great, you now define people's own personal values and standings. Lemme pass the crown of Judge and Executioner to you.

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The PvE/PvP player and the PvP player will never agree.

I'm a PVE/PVP player, I seem to agree with a number of PVP players

but I do take into account more things.

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You don't have time to "grind", but you have time to clutter message boards with neverending requests that the game be rewritten to accomodate you?

Maybe because their sick and tired of the grind, not because they don't have the time.

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Why not use the time you spend posting to read, learn, experiment and develop winning tactics using the skills you do have? If you did, you might find yourself able to compete after all.

Some of us have more then enough winning tactics to last us a lifetime against people like you. Please do not make such bold statements.

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The skills they make available to you in PvP have been used by winning teams in the past. If they were good enough for those teams, why aren't they good enough for you?

Because some of these people are those teams.

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I think we know the answer. Even if you got what you are asking for, you are still going to kiss pavement. It's the difference between a player who learns how to win, and a player who crys because they "can't" win.

I cry because I lost with henchies after taking out 4 teams in the 6 team FFA. Oh Noez.

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I think the whine about wanting UAS is purely childishness, the complete and total lack of insight as to just how much you have been given.

Coming from someone who hasn't even finished the game yet. Lack of insight indeed.

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I also think most of you posting didn't bother to RTFM as it seems to me it has always been very, very clear that you would have to earn your skills and runes just like the rest of the world.

EARN YOUR MUSTARD, EARN IT BY KISSING YOUR TIME GOODBYE AS YOU SPEND HOURS AND HOURS ON RIVER FOR SUPERIORS RAWRRRR. Welcome to World of Burgercraft, shouting angers the Filet O Fish.

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p.s.: I was leading one of the best PvP guilds in Meridan 59 and later, UO when most of you were yet an itch in your daddy's pants. If you want to know why I left PvP for PvE, just read your own posts.

Next your going to claim you found the Holy Grail. Can you at least post things that are relevant to the point? Talking about personal history can be very iffy, and can get you owned really bad. I thought age comes with wisdom.

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The PvP templates by themselves out of the box are a joke. Any good team with a customized build will completely destroy those templates.

But..but..but...one of them is made by...*gasp* IVEX!!!

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You are resorting to baseless ad hominem attacks of calling us childish and prop yourself up as better and older. Do not take this offensively, but this is ironically childish.

Hey, John Kerry kept talking about Nam. What are you complaining about? This is chumpchange.

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Personally, I think you should take the advice my partner just gave as he was looking over my shoulder, "Poor kid... tell him if he can't stand to play, quit. Otherwise, tell him to suck it up because life's tough and it's no one's fault but his own if he didn't RTFM."

Where in the manual did it say that unlockables make up a huge chunk of the win?

Second, suck it up? Why don't you suck it up and stop posting here then. Apparently no one wants any of your whining about us "whining". Take your own medicine if your going to disperse it. Don't be a hypocrite. Play the game, and stop posting if your telling people to do the same.

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Heh. So true. I think I'll leave it at that. After all, anyone willing to directly misquote you to try and make their point obviously doesn't have a leg to stand on...

The sad part is the remark is so weak, there's no point in responding to it. Well done.

AirOnG · May 31, 2005, 02:00 AM // 02:00

Lol. Xellos, you really need to put in who you are quoting. That post is so long that you don't know who you are responding to ^^ Of course I don't think rewards in PvP should make you stronger. That's why I said position in a ladder or ranking.

I think you've quoted me with the first few quotes with my pro-PvP viewpoint and are completely misrepresenting my position as if I was a pro-PvE person :P

Edit: Wow, Xellos. You are taking my statement completely out of context and acting as if I was directing them to you rather than someone else ^^ It's kind of funny in a way.

Xellos · May 31, 2005, 02:10 AM // 02:10

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Lol. Xellos, you really need to put in who you are quoting.

Your suppose to focus on the quote, the content of the quote, and my own response, the content of my response. Who it belongs to matters not.

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That post is so long that you don't know who you are responding to ^^

Where did I make the mistake?

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Of course I don't think rewards in PvP should make you stronger. That's why I said position in a ladder or ranking.

GvG has ladder, Tombs has rank. Currently arena and gvg aren't pushed enough compared to tombs. Obvious stuff like that. Not enough scenarios blah blah blah. Same old same old.

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I think you've quoted me with the first few quotes with my pro-PvP viewpoint and are completely misrepresenting my position as if I was a pro-PvE person :P

I don't care what position you are in, I respond to each sentence which has a logic error :P

Redfang · May 31, 2005, 02:14 AM // 02:14

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Originally Posted by AirOnG

You are assuming we are unable to compete and are implying we are simply whining due to lack of ability.

Ok, let's assume I am wrong. You are winning! So, if you are winning then you have demonstrated that what has been provided to you is adequate and the playing field is sufficiently level.

Of course, I suspect I was right the first time. You are whining because you are losing. I haven't met a lot of whiney winners.

DarrenJasper · May 31, 2005, 02:19 AM // 02:19

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Originally Posted by Redfang

Ok, let's assume I am wrong. You are winning! So, if you are winning then you have demonstrated that what has been provided to you is adequate and the playing field is sufficiently level.

Of course, I suspect I was right the first time. You are whining because you are losing. I haven't met a lot of whiney winners.

Here you go again! I suspect your inability to wrap your head around this concept stems from years of beating up mindless computer-controlled orcs, never smart enough to do anything besides beat on you until they die.

Even if we're winning now, it's only a matter of time before our opponents catch on and adapt themselves to our strategy. Then we'll have to re-think our strategy to adapt to theirs, and etc. That's kind of the game, see...

AirOnG · May 31, 2005, 02:19 AM // 02:19

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Originally Posted by Xellos

Your suppose to focus on the quote, the content of the quote, and my own response, the content of my response. Who it belongs to matters not.

It matters so that people reading your post understand the context and who said what. It is important.

Let me show you an example of how convoluted it can get:

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Originally Posted by AirOnG

In order to really be "earned" to a PvPer, the reward should be something that actually requires skill like position in a ladder or tournament. To obtain runes and skills in this game, all that is required is purely time and very little skill.

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Originally Posted by Xellos

Rewards in PVP should never enable you to become stronger directly or indirectly. That widens the gap between skilled players and casual players. The game still has to cater to everyone.

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Originally Posted by AirOnG

Of course I don't think rewards in PvP should make you stronger. That's why I said position in a ladder or ranking.

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Originally Posted by Xellos

GvG has ladder, Tombs has rank. Currently arena and gvg aren't pushed enough compared to tombs. Obvious stuff like that. Not enough scenarios blah blah blah. Same old same old.

I think you clearly lost track of what I was even talking about in the first place ^^

Quote:

Originally Posted by AirOnG

You are resorting to baseless ad hominem attacks of calling us childish and prop yourself up as better and older. Do not take this offensively, but this is ironically childish.

(In context, it is very clear I am talking to The Virago, not you, Xellos)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xellos

Hey, John Kerry kept talking about Nam. What are you complaining about? This is chumpchange.

I hope you understand why I made that statement. Ad hominem attacks get everyone nowhere and add absolutely nothing to the discussion. You really have to point them out so the other side can realize what they are doing. I can assure you I have thick skin despite this realization. I'm not really sure why you are talking about John Kerry ^^

Weezer_Blue · May 31, 2005, 02:20 AM // 02:20

I don't see why PvEers whine at all if an UAS button was implimented with no strings attached. No special ladders. Nothing more than access to all skills.

How does it affect you? "Oh no! they're having fun now! I'll have to thwart them!". It's not like you would get owned... You can make a PvP character too... You don't need to be a whiner about it...

AirOnG · May 31, 2005, 02:29 AM // 02:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redfang

Ok, let's assume I am wrong. You are winning! So, if you are winning then you have demonstrated that what has been provided to you is adequate and the playing field is sufficiently level.

This is another fallacious statement. How is the playing field level if one (not necessarily me, I could be one who has grinded!) is winning with a handicap? This does not logically make sense. A game is not a level playing field due to handicaps or advantages given to the lesser skilled.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redfang

Of course, I suspect I was right the first time. You are whining because you are losing. I haven't met a lot of whiney winners.

Like I've said before, many top guilds are complaining about the grind and wish for its elimination. You should not make too many baseless assumptions ^^

Redfang, you really have to clear that common misconception of the PvP position from your mind. PvPers do not want an UAS ladder because they supposedly keep losing or because they want some ubercharacter. An UAS simply creates a level playing field and does not make your character any better than any other character or your ability at the game any better or worse.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarrenJasper

Here you go again! I suspect your inability to wrap your head around this concept stems from years of beating up mindless computer-controlled orcs, never smart enough to do anything besides beat on you until they die.

I've learned from a wise man quite some time ago that you really should not slander the other side. Rather than doing that, you should be constructive and point out their logical fallacies the best you can. Insulting them really does not get you anywhere, DarrenJasper.

Weezer_Blue · May 31, 2005, 02:34 AM // 02:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by AirOnG

This is another fallacious statement. How is the playing field level if one (not necessarily me, I could be one who has grinded!) is winning with a handicap? This does not logically make sense. A game is not a level playing field due to handicaps or advantages given to the lesser skilled.

you're not working at a handicap and you have no advantage... you've just grinded and done the idiotic thing: being bored for hours on end to be competitive before you entered into PvP. your opponent did the smart thing. he hit UAS and jumped right in. if there is a handicap, it is your supposed stupidity.

my solution for stupidity: leave one of your character spots open for a PvP only character...

you could also say that you're working at a handicap because you had to work for your attribute points... but you didn't bother bringing that up...

DarrenJasper · May 31, 2005, 02:36 AM // 02:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by AirOnG

I've learned from a wise man quite some time ago that you really should not slander the other side. Rather than doing that, you should be constructive and point out their logical fallacies the best you can. Insulting them really does not get you anywhere, DarrenJasper.

That may be true in your experience. Since we're on the same side in this, why don't you stick to your methods and let me stick to mine?

And what has been said thus far is hardly what I'd call slander.

AirOnG · May 31, 2005, 02:40 AM // 02:40

Weezer_Blue, what in the world are you saying? Why are people not reading what I say?! That's not my position at all

I'm a PvPer! I'm going to try to figure out your logic and respond.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weezer_Blue

you're not working at a handicap and you have no advantage... you've just grinded and done the idiotic thing: being bored for hours on end to be competitive before you entered into PvP. your opponent did the smart thing. he hit UAS and jumped right in. if there is a handicap, it is your supposed stupidity.

Weezer, you should really read the full context of this statement ^^ You're completely misunderstanding it. This statement is not about a theoretical situation of why a PvEer would feel gimped in PvP (thinking it wouldn't be a dual ladder system). This statement is about pointing out a non sequitur committed by Redfang.

DarrenJasper, believe me. I've tried your method where when I got frustrated I'd just started making cynical remarks toward the opposition. I suppose experience will eventually teach you that your current method is flawed, although I think it should be self-evident with how people have responded to you in this thread ^^